Windows 8

[Emegra]

I've read this thread with some interest, and what strikes me is how Linux advocates are so quick to rubbish windows 8 and the surface tablet, when Linux doesn't offer an alternative

I wanted to buy my wife a tablet for her Christmas because she's so impressed with my daughters Ipad, I searched everywhere yet I couldn't find a tablet running ubuntu. webos or any other Linux distribution (unless you consider Android a Linux distribution), what better time could there have been for Linux to introduce a tablet than Christmas 2012, but once again Linux is last out the stalls.

Believe me I am no advocate of Microsoft and this windows 8 surface tablet may well be rubbish but at least it's there for people to buy and people will buy it just like they they would buy a tablet running Ubuntu if it was available and marketed properly, so don't be surprised if 2013 doesn't turn out to be the year of the Linux tablet,and don't be surprised if 2014 is too late.

 You've got to be in it to win it


Graeme

[Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec)]

I'm not rubbishing the Surface tablet .. more Win8

And I couldn't agree more, if manufacturers would only use Linux on a tablet .. now is the time, but will likely be another missed opportunity

Personally I'm still hoping Ubuntu get the Ubuntu for Android thing off the ground .. before someone else steals the thunder.
(but they still need to get the phone manufacturers and telco's onboard)

<a href="http://youtube.googleapis.com/v/wzc0uMXGFBY" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://youtube.googleapis.com/v/wzc0uMXGFBY</a>

[SeZo]

I've read this thread with some interest, and what strikes me is how Linux advocates are so quick to rubbish windows 8 and the surface tablet, when Linux doesn't offer an alternative

OK. what does Win8 on tablet offer more than iOS or Android for that matter?
How about an alternative which is easy on the pocket? or this one?.

[Mad Penguin]

Mmm, I'll bite. From what I've seen Of windows 8 and read in terms of reviews, Linux people don't need to waste their time rubbishing it as it's already dead ... suicide I understand.

 As for the hardware, M$ initially ordered 4M units, but now can't sell them so have scaled back their order to 2M ... have you any idea how many hundred million iPads they've sold so far? The hardware spec is rubbish when compared to a Nexus 10, and as for the price ?!!!!

Now, this may be a little subjective, but to my mind Android devices run a Linux kernel plus lots of software that is available under an open source licence ... which makes Android a Linux distribution.

I'm thinking (and hoping) after seeing the makers of the raspberry pi mark II claim that their device will run Android, that we'll see Android for x86_64 way before we see Ubuntu for tablets ..... 

-- edit:

And before you say "but its got a keyboard" , you can get a funky Bluetooth keyboard (and tablet stand) for your non-surface device from PC world for 30 quid!!!

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2

[salparadise]

what strikes me is how Linux advocates are so quick to rubbish windows 8 and the surface tablet, when Linux doesn't offer an alternative

It's possible that you don't appreciate the power that Microsoft wields in the market. It's not a case of merely providing a tablet that runs Ubuntu and selling it. Such a move would instantly attract Microsoft's legal team who would begin to sue and sue and sue - not because they are wronged, but because they are Microsoft and what they say goes. This is why no major hardware maker (except perhaps Dell and their offferings were well buried on their website) have tried to offer Linux machines to the market. Microsoft know that if word gets that there's a free alternative to Windows, that doesn't need anti-virus and that is a lot more stable, that they'll lose customers in large numbers. So, they manage perception by paying for bogus studies, rigging Standards Committees and whining to the US Government and Courts, who usually act on their behalf.

To use Linux is not just to be in the minority, but it is to be lied about by certain large IT Corporations who are all threatened by the presence of Linux and the ethos upon which it operates and those large Corporations do not fight cleanly or honestly.

[Mad Penguin]

PC vendors get to buy OEM windows at some stupid price like $15 a copy ... but I'm under the impression that this is only available to vendors who do not pre-load Linux .... whether this was a one time alleged thread or still ongoing, it at least gives an insight into M$s perceived tac-tics. Losing access to a deal like this could be  a major blow for a PC maker.

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2

[Emegra]

I'm not well enough versed in the politics of software licencing etc to form a valid opinion on Microsofts business practices or their operating systems in general, I was only looking at this from a standpoint of someone who wanted to buy a tablet pc preinstalled with Linux and couldn't because there isn't one available (at least not one I could find), and it seems to me that personal computing is changing direction towards the tablet model and Linux isn't at the races, and if they don't get out the stalls soon another golden opportunity will be missed to break into the mainstream


Graeme

[Mad Penguin]

Ooookkay ... so which part of "Android is a Linux distribution" isn't doing it for you ??

[salparadise]

http://www.geekosystem.com/100-dollar-linux-tablet/

More to the point
http://www.knowyourmobile.com/blog/1708122/sub100_android_40linux_tablet_now_up_for_preorder.html

[Emegra]

Ooookkay ... so which part of "Android is a Linux distribution" isn't doing it for you ??

I suppose you're right but somehow I've never viewed Android as a Linux Distribution in the same way as I view Ubuntu for example (which is probably wrong)

The ubuntu developers developed the Unity interface with tablets in mind, but where are all these tablets, that is what I was referring to, Ive seen video of Ubuntu running on a tablet and the interface is exactly the same as the desktop version, likewise Windows 8 surface tablet has more or less the same UI as the desktop version from what I can see, But I've never seen Android running on a desktop so maybe there is where my confusion lies

But you're right Android is Linux

As it turned out I bought a 10" Android tablet so I feel better knowing it's more Linux than I thought it was

[Mad Penguin]

I suppose you're right ...

... I'd be interested to hear in which planet I'm even 0.000001% wrong?   ;-)

The ubuntu developers developed the Unity interface with tablets in mind ...

I might be inclined to replace "with tablets in mind" with "on weed" , but either way anyone who's used a tablet will know that Android was designed the way it was for a reason. i.e. there are reasons why the likes of Apple and Google didn't just try to stick a desktop UI on tablet devices.

Under the hood, Android is "pure Linux" within the popular conception of Linux, i.e. it's a Linux kernel and a bunch of GNU based Unix tools, it's only the User Interface (which is in effect a Linux application) which is different to the software sitting on your desktop. Visit the Android app store and grab a "terminal" application, then try things like "ls" , "ps", "netstat" etc etc.

This is a traditional view of a Unix-like kernel;



The only real difference between for example "Linux" and "BSD" is the Kernel, all the other tools are fairly interchangeabl e, sometimes they are coded specifically for a given OS, most are simple recompilations of the same code. So (!) if Ubuntu were to insert a BSD (or HURD) kernel in place of the current Linux kernel (both of which are feasible, one of which has been talked about) would Ubuntu still be "Linux"

At the end of the day there are a number of kernels that are arguably better than Linux in many fundamental ways and the thing that carries Linux is it's breadth of device driver support and it's range of functionality, or more fundamentally it's age / critical mass. In the days "before" Linux Linus as a student had an on-line argument with a chap called Andrew Tanenbaum with regards to kernel design. At the time, although Linus actually won the argument, Andrew was actually right - one day, Linux will have to bend this this and alter it's design or it will ultimately be replaced by the current competition which includes the likes of BSD, Mach and QNX ...

[incidentally, how Blackberry managed to screw up their tablet design after picking the Worlds best real time OS to base it on simply beggars belief!]
[had a.n.other core Unix (QNX for example) open sourced back in the early 90's, Linux would never have taken off ..]

[Emegra]

... I'd be interested to hear in which planet I'm even 0.000001% wrong?   ;-)

Ok Your absolutely right and I bow to your superior knowledge

but I'd be interested to know what in what universe we live IN planets

I thought we lived ON them

[Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec)]

If we're going to get into semantics .. We certainly don't live on THEM .. but we have been known to live IN this one, caves, mines, and hobbit holes .. Oh sorry about the last one, I obviously read Lord of the rings too much

Don't NASA say we're more likely to live IN the first planet we go to (probably Mars), to shield from Solar radiation ?

Thinking about it, I suppose we live IN this one .. if the atmosphere is considered part of the planet .. and if it isn't, why not (after all, gas planets are still planets) ?

Houses are made from planetary stuff .. and we live IN them 

I'm beginning to think living ON planet earth is a bit of a misnomer

And to bring us back on topic .. Luckilly the atmosphere is still considered open source, unlike water and land which somehow we allowed to become proprietary. 

.

[Emegra]

Thanks Mad Penguin for the informative post, you certainly know a lot more about kernels and kernel design than I do, I tried understanding kernels before but couldn't quite grasp it, correct me if I'm wrong but there are 2 types of Kernel, Micro & Monolithic and I understand that Linux is Monolithic (which was the subject of debate between Torvalds & Tannenbaum) and Hurd is a Microkernel

But what in your words is the difference between the 2 and which one is better ?

Thanks


Graeme

[Mad Penguin]

but I'd be interested to know what in what universe we live IN planets

.. I bow to your superior typo detection system ;-)

But what in your words is the difference between the 2 and which one is better ?

Erm, I'm not sure there are "just two" as such as there are many ways to categorise kernels, however in-context these two approaches are opposites and the "better" approach is very clear. From memory the argument was something along the lines of;

Tanenbaum: microkernel is technically superior in every way, hence monolithic is a non-starter
Linus: monolithic is easy to code and look "it works!" (ps. where can I see this mythical microkernel?)

I guess that at the time there were a number of hypothetical micro-kernels knocking around (HURD for example) and despite their technical superiority, none of them actually materialised as real systems .. HURD is "still" under development 20 years on and there's still no 1.0 release.

The difference; on Linux, device drivers (and indeed much more) are linked directly into the kernel and have direct access to all the features of the kernel .. which is very flexible, easy to code and great to play with. The downside of course is that a bug in any one of thousands of possible drivers can bring down the entire machine. Not so good!

Microkernels on the other hand typically load device drivers as partitioned or user-space modules that can be run and crashed without risking the kernel .. however the partitioning can make device driver development more challenging and potentially less efficient. (i.e. monolithic kernels have the potential to perform "better" as fewer API levels are typically "needed" to interface to the system)

So on the one hand you have "quick and easy" and on the other "robust".
To my way of thinking, over time the latter option will always wins out in the end, or indeed the former becomes the latter.

I'd quite like to see HURD materialise, it might take a long time to replace Linux entirely, but getting a foothold in the server market where the number of device drivers you need to support is more limited, shouldn't be quite such a challenge.