Author Topic: XP's demise  (Read 3251 times)

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Offline Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec)

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Re: XP's demise
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2013, 09:45:13 pm »
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Offline pooky2483

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Re: XP's demise
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2014, 12:17:38 am »
It will be a long time before the total demise of Window$ as almost every business in the UK is running Window$, mailnly XP.
The Government use it too. Can you see them coming to their 'senses' and ditching XP for a Linux OS?
It will have to undergo a huge metamorphosis and be 'more' 'user-friendly'  before the whole 'home' market migrates over to a Linux OS such as Ubuntu.
They will have to make installing programs a lot more easy, I will admit that there is the repo where you can install programs but not ALL are available there, also there is the problem of 'updating' the software, at the moment we have to add a PPA to be able to receive updates.

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Offline Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec)

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Re: XP's demise
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2014, 01:35:01 am »
Nope, sorry, can't be dealing with that .. pulpit time.....

I don't believe the "Linux is less user friendly" argument for a second, it's pure fallacy.

Obviously it's *slightly*  foreign to users who spent years learning their way round Windows .. but from a "user" standpoint, how is it harder ? .. you click the icon, the file manger / application starts .. you click SAVE, it saves .. you click the "X" it closes .. how hard can that be even for a windows die hard  ::)

From a techie point of view - where hardware works (because the manufacturers can be bothered to write drivers or open source them), Linux is easier than Windows and most likely will just work with minimal (or no) configuration.

For hardware with problems .. problem solving is no easier in Windows, in fact it's harder as you can't study the code/configs, and it's most likely undocumented for fear of "giving the game away".

It's taken me far less time to understand Linux troubleshooting "reasonably" well than it did Windows .. the fact that they completely change Windows every few years doesn't help .. but if they didn't, think of all the lost revenue from techies updating their MCSE's, MCSA's, etc.



Sure adding drives and configuring them for network access may *seem* harder from a "user" standpoint .. but that's not a "user" task, that's an administration task .. in Linux or Windows you need a skill set for administration, you either acquire it or you don't, but it's no easier to acquire for Windows .. as I said, I consider it quite a bit harder.

It's only Windows users who "think" they're admins that get themselves into trouble with Linux .. but we all know they get themselves into trouble with Windows on a regular basis too and reinstall at the drop of a hat because they know no better.



Sorry Pooky, but the rest about installing software and updating it is just pure drivel and makes no sense at all.  :o

Again, it's different .. it's only "harder" if you haven't bothered to learn how, and it's MUCH "better" and IMHO "easier" once you do.

Jeez dude .. click a.deb and it installs .. where's the problem with that ?
or install from the repo's and it will ALL be kept up to date .. Windows is a nightmare to keep updated.

If you MUST have the cutting edge, for usually no good reason .. then learn how to administer package management .. add a PPA .. and it'll stay up to date automatically (unlike Windows).



And I won't even go into the malware/virus side of things that make Windows so much more "user friendly"  ::)

Put simply - from a "user" standpoint there's little difference (besides Linux being more secure) it's all point and click, and from an admin standpoint how can an OS where installing ANY software puts your whole system and network at risk, and regularly screws it over completely requiring a reinstall, be considered more "friendly" ?

Windows is "easier" to administer for people who only know Windows
Linux is "easier" to administer for people who only know Linux
As someone who's learned both (to varying degrees), I say Linux is "easier".



Look what you did there .. you got me all fired up and soapbox preaching again ;)

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« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 02:46:27 am by Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec) »
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Offline Emegra

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Re: XP's demise
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2014, 08:03:03 am »
Wow looks like you struck a raw nerve there pooky :)

having said that and as much as I like winding Mark up as well I have to agree with what he said, but I think one of the main reasons enterprise would be reluctant to migrate to Linux is the chaotic or perceived chaotic nature of it's development not only of Linux but open source development in general.

Businesses are conservative and like to deal with other conservative businesses they can relate to and Microsoft represents that.

Another drawback is the lack of business level and specialised software that's available for Linux, although that's slowly improving it's not there yet, I myself run a small business still using xp and I can't move over to Linux because the software I need is just not available believe me I've looked






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Offline pooky2483

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Re: XP's demise
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2014, 01:32:19 pm »
Bloody 'ell... I'm a smouldering pile in the corner lol

What I was trying to explain was that to the typical 'Family user', where the parents know sod all about how to use a Linux OS and neither to any of the kids, it's an alien environment to them compared to what they would have known using Window$.
I know installing a .deb file is easy, what about .tar.gz ones? Even now, I am still stumped when it comes to installing them, I try to stay away from them and instead look for the .deb version or look in the repo. And how many of them would know that they have to manually add a PPA so they can keep the program updated.

Mark, you say 'I don't believe the "Linux is less user friendly" argument for a second, it's pure fallacy.', how long have you been using Linux? A huge percentage of 'home' users have grown up with Window$, NOT Linux. It will be like going back to the early 80's when home computing was in it's infancy, only now it's going to be Linux instead of ZX81/Commodore/etc...

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Offline Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec)

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Re: XP's demise
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2014, 01:59:55 pm »
You seem to be using "user" and "admin" interchangeably.

Your average home Windows "user" buys a machine with Windows and some software pre-installed, a month down the line they think they're clever enough to administer, so they start downloading software and installing it and things inevitably start going downhill from there .. 6months  to a year later they take their PC to a professional who 99 times out of 100 will just reinstall Windows.

SOME Windows admin tasks may *appear* easier, but that leads people who should only be considered "users" to attempt admin on an OS that's MUCH harder to fix.

Sure tar.gz (source code) is not for the uninitiated, but then it's not meant for them (it's possible to compile source in Windows too you know, but you don't do you) .. in any case, installing software isn't a "user" task, and I've already pointed out that even in Windows when "users" think they're admins, everything falls apart pretty damn quickly usually (sooner or later) resulting in a COMPLETELY broken system

So..

If we separate "user" and "admin"

a "user" points and clkicks on either OS .. but on Linux, "user" actions are unlikely to give the "admin" a headache.

an "admin" on either OS needs a certain skill set or you'll get into trouble .. but at least Linux is usually fixable.

Your problem appears to be that Linux is better separates "user" and "admin" tasks more efficiently than Windows .. but it's the perceived overlap in Windows that causes half the problems.

If a "user" that thinks he's an "admin" sticks to the default repos, he's MUCH less likely to get into trouble installing software in Linux than Windows .. so which is more "user friendly" ?



@ Emegra

I'd agree the perceived chaos in development models used to be an issue .. but recently businesses are realising that more gets done more quickly in collaborative development .. and not just in software.

It's quickly becomming the accepted BEST development model.

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« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 02:11:06 pm by Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec) »
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Re: XP's demise
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2014, 03:39:53 pm »

 I think linux can be as simple or challenging as you want it to be.

 One thing is for sure......Nobody on this planet could coax me back to Windows.

 Jocklad  :)

Offline Emegra

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Re: XP's demise
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2014, 04:15:24 pm »
Quote
One thing is for sure......Nobo dy on this planet could coax me back to Windows.

Wish I could say the same, I can't get free of it






Graeme
If you can keep your head while all around are losing theirs, then you're not quite grasping the situation

Offline pooky2483

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Re: XP's demise
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2014, 05:28:31 pm »
You seem to be using "user" and "admin" interchangeably.

Your average home Windows "user" buys a machine with Windows and some software pre-installed, a month down the line they think they're clever enough to administer, so they start downloading software and installing it and things inevitably start going downhill from there .. 6months  to a year later they take their PC to a professional who 99 times out of 100 will just reinstall Windows.

In my experience, that's what the average home user is. Could you honestly see every 'home user' taking their PC to somewhere like PC World just to have a piece of S/W installed? NO. You download most software from the internet and install it yourself.

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Offline Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec)

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Re: XP's demise
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2014, 06:16:05 pm »
You're not listening...

a) no I wouldn't .. but installing software IS an admin task, and as soon as they start doing it, windows starts deteriorating .. sometimes immediately if you downloaded the instaler from the web (as most windows "users" would).

b) we were originally talkiing about BUSINESSES, who either DO have an IT dept, or SHOULD get software installed by someone who can do it properly, then test it before deployment.

c) Linux's package management makes installing software by a "user" easier to not get it wrong and screw up your system.

Just because you CAN install from source doesn't mean as a "user" you should.
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Offline pooky2483

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Re: XP's demise
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2014, 02:18:08 pm »
I know what you're saying Mark.
Have you seen the adverts on TV with a woman at a PC complaining it's slow and then that silly little character tells her to install a piece of SW that can help clear up the problems and speed it up. You don't see anywhere telling you to take your PC to a 'shop' to have every single piece of SW installed b them.

You could say some 'home users' are self appointed IT Specialists by installing their own SW.


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Offline SeZo

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Re: XP's demise
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2014, 02:58:39 pm »
I think some of the users INSISTS on using Linux the way they used Windows, thus missing out on ALL the benefits of the Linux ecosystem. ::)

Offline Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec)

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Re: XP's demise
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2014, 03:59:53 pm »
Pooky, I still think you're missing my point...

this is all about the term "user friendly"

YOU seem to think the Windows model of searching the internet for software .. downloading it .. then "click the .exe to install" method is "user friendly" .. where Linux's repo/package manager is not.

*I* contend that's a fallacy arising from familiarity .. it may *appear* easier, but that's just because that's what you're used to.

But back to "user friendly" .. when installing software by the Windows method inevitably ends up with a slow/broken/compromised system that is a risk to ALL other (Windows) PC's on your network, how can it be considered "user friendly"

By comparison in Linux if you stick to the software in the repos, it's easier to install and highly unlikely to cause you any problems.

Anything outside the repos, such as PPA's and compiling from source should be considered "advanced" and attempted at your own risk (or not at all unless you are confident you know what you're doing) .. the same as compiling source or registry editing in Windows would be.

So I'm 110% covinced the default Linux method is more "user friendly".

No they don't tell you to take your Windows PC to a shop to have software installed, but considering its lack of security, and the fact it's so hard to fix (usually easier to just reinstall) .. maybe they SHOULD.

I'm not even going to comment on MIRACLE software (that likes its own name) that can OBVIOUSLY and MAGICALLY overcome all Windows design flaws  ???



@ SeZo

Couldn't agree more, that's EXACTLY the problem :)

Some people can't see past the *difference*, so rather than seeing the benefits of Linux, only feel let down by the fact it's not exactly the same as Windows.

The thing I find most odd is most turn up because they feel let down by Windows for one reason or another .. then want Linux to BE Windows .. I'll never understand that  ::)

It nearly always centres around wanting Linux to use downloadable binary installers (a la Windows) because that's what they're *used to* .. why do they have such a problem seeing that's one of Windows biggest PROBLEMS (amongst a sea of other issues) .. so why would Linux want to emulate such a fatally flawed system.

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« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 04:21:42 pm by Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec) »
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Offline pooky2483

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Re: XP's demise
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2014, 04:55:15 pm »
Pooky, I still think you're missing my point...

this is all about the term "user friendly"


I agree with you there Mark, Linux is more user friendly when using the repo's and installing outside the repo's with .deb/.tar.gz is advanced.
What I'm trying to explain is that to the average 'home user' Linux is an advanced system as they have grown up using Window$ and to them Linux is used by IT specialists and 'those that know what they are doing'


@ SeZo

Couldn't agree more, that's EXACTLY the problem :)

Some people can't see past the *difference*, so rather than seeing the benefits of Linux, only feel let down by the fact it's not exactly the same as Windows.

The thing I find most odd is most turn up because they feel let down by Windows for one reason or another .. then want Linux to BE Windows .. I'll never understand that  ::)

It nearly always centres around wanting Linux to use downloadable binary installers (a la Windows) because that's what they're *used to* .. why do they have such a problem seeing that's one of Windows biggest PROBLEMS (amongst a sea of other issues) .. so why would Linux want to emulate such a fatally flawed system.

--
[/quote]

I'd say to that, it's because they've grown up using Window$ and it's all they've known.

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Offline goldtopia

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Re: XP's demise
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2014, 08:37:58 am »
The main problem is that programmes that you get on Windows are not made for Linux. I use music reader, page plus and dreamweaver. etc. only available for windows and apple. I don't dual boot and don't use wine because installing is too complicated and it wont run all windows programmes, so I  have to use a separate windows computer.  The people who make programmes for windows don't seem at all interested in Linux. Its such a shame because Linux is quicker and much more reliable.  PC World dont sell any Linux based computers. They say What's that.  Its seems there's some kind of conspiracy to keep Linux out of PC World and other computer shops.
Bill.O

 


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