Author Topic: Bodhi creator and lead developer standing down - is this the end of Bodhi ?  (Read 8133 times)

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Offline chemicalfan

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Re: Bodhi creator and lead developer standing down - is this the end of Bodhi ?
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2014, 01:53:00 pm »
I liked Mint when I first got into Linux .. it was Ubuntu with a radio that had been pre-tuned in for you .. but now I just see them as having the same problems people level at Ubuntu (but are actually 'less' true about Ubuntu), they 'pretend' to be something different .. but at the end of the day they are just Ubuntu/Debian with a different shirt, they retain all the same bloat/roughness and go after the same market, so I'm having trouble differentiating them ;)

Yeah, kinda gotta reply to this  ;)

I like the car analogy, although tractors are pretty slow, and it's mostly acknowledged that Debian is quicker/lighter than Ubuntu. So, maybe it's more like a Caterham, and Debian aren't too skilled with a spanner...

Anyway, I don't really understand your issue with Mint re: bloat. It's always been bloaty (well, the main releases, not the Xfce/Fluxbox ones), certainly no worse than Ubuntu and better than Windows. I get you can get Ubuntu base and it's light, like Debian base. Also, I get that there are 2 perspectives here - the end user (driver) and the distro builder/maintainer (mechanic). As a driver, I don't really care how difficult it is to maintain (especially as there's no charge from the mechanic!), as long as it's a nice drive. And as long as you've got the hardware, Mint is a nice drive. If OS performance is like fuel economy, then I don't care if Mint Cinnamon is thirsty compared to LXDE, if I can afford to put the fuel in it. I know it's an upside down way of thinking about it, maybe I've had too many cups of tea, but it makes sense to me lol

It's 2 different ideas - KDE/Cinnamon is the expensive-to-run Merc, and LXDE is the economical yet nice little VW. If you don't have much hardware/money for fuel, you might be forced towards LXDE, if you've got lots then it's up to you. Some people prefer the little cars even if they are rich!

Err, off track now. So, with regard to Debian's lack of polish, it's really only a big problem for the "mechanics". A well built car should just work, if not the mechanics job isn't finished. So, I don't think Debian is bad, just that it's more work for the mechanics and they haven't cracked it yet. Just like cars were crap in the 80s, but they are better now (hence why we don't drive around in cars designed/built back then). Hmm, actually it's more like a Honda builder deciding that they want a new job at Fiat, and things are a bit different, so it takes a while to properly get the hang of it. And it shows in the final product  :P

Offline Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec)

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Re: Bodhi creator and lead developer standing down - is this the end of Bodhi ?
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2014, 02:58:21 pm »
I meant "tractor" as a stable reliable workhorse, if a little boring and requiring a uncommon level of expertise to operate .. not so much as a speed comparison.....

And besides, who says tractors have to be slow ;)


I'm not saying Debian is "bad" .. just that I think the reason a lot of distro devs seem to be basing on it are political decisions, not that it's the best base for the job.
I can't personally see any benefit to using a less polished base that'll be rougher and harder to setup for the average user .. specialist distro's fine .. the rest are either being political or are doing it for themselves not their users.

Mint - Again I'm not saying it's "bad" .. I'm just saying it's basically Ubuntu (or Debian for LMDE), so I seriously don't get the "Ubuntu bad", "Mint good" thing.

What exactly are the benefits of Mint over Ubuntu .. or LMDE over Debian ?

Quote
So, with regard to Debian's lack of polish, it's really only a big problem for the "mechanics". A well built car should just work, if not the mechanics job isn't finished.


Agreed .. I'm saying Debian make it harder for the mechanic (which often translates into harder for the driver too), with no real benefits .. so why use it as a base ?

What exactly are the benefits of a Debian base over Ubuntu ?

I started off saying I can't see the point in basing on Debian over Ubuntu other than for political reasons .. in most cases I stand by that.
(same argument can be used for Mint/Ubuntu)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 03:25:56 pm by Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec) »
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Re: Bodhi creator and lead developer standing down - is this the end of Bodhi ?
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2014, 02:58:21 pm »

Offline chemicalfan

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Re: Bodhi creator and lead developer standing down - is this the end of Bodhi ?
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2014, 03:34:04 pm »
I lol'd - tractor pulling is awesome  :D

Mint vs. Ubuntu - Mint doesn't have Unity (and the themes are nicer that just forcing a different DE on Ubuntu). And Mint has all the codecs and Flash and what-have-you pre-installed. Also, Mint has some nice utilities like the control panel and mintupdate. But basically it's the same (you only have to check the Mint repo to see that there's only like 100 packages in there, everything else is drawn directly from Ubuntu's repos)

Debian vs. Ubuntu - Politically, it's only the fact that Ubuntu employ specific patches in some packages that mean that you can't compile Debian sources on Ubuntu successfully (I don't have a concrete source on this, but it's kinda known about - Unity is a decent example of Ubuntu-specific software). Not a major issue, but not exactly open. But the biggie for me, is the shot across the bow that Shuttleworth made regarding use of Ubuntu's repos by seperate distros. It's scary, as it would end Mint's (and possibly others such as Peppermint) main version immediately. They'd have to fork & maintain their own repo, and even if that's a mirror like CentOS, it's still a lot of infrastructure and I doubt the project has the funds. I'd be 99% sure they'd say bugger it and can the Ubuntu-based release, and focus 100% on Debian at that point.

It's just a case of Shuttleworth flexing his muscles, but the open-source community just doesn't need that kind of attitude. Closing up shop isn't the way to proliferate open-source software, and it's damaging to the argument for it.

Edit: I agree about the use of Debian for political reasons - if it's for e-peen reasons, you might as well use Arch or Gentoo (something that is going to make a notable performance difference). Debian isn't that different, certainly not in any relevant measures. It's not more secure or reliable than Ubuntu (probably gotta look towards Red Hat/CentOS or Slack for that)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 03:37:17 pm by chemicalfan »

Offline Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec)

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Re: Bodhi creator and lead developer standing down - is this the end of Bodhi ?
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2014, 03:47:42 pm »
Quote
I'd be 99% sure they'd say bugger it and can the Ubuntu-based release


I'd pretty much guarantee it .. and Ubuntu would become a pariah, and most of its devs would probably leave and rally around Mint, thus fulfilling the prophecy .. Which is why I have no fears of it happening.
(what I doubt would happen is that people would go to Debian .. they'd find a way to fork Ubuntu, or fork Debian into an Ubuntu-alike replicating what Ubuntu did)

Ubuntu backed down and cleared that up pretty quickly suggesting it was more about "branding/licensing" than repo usage .. and IMHO was just a sour grapes off the cuff (and quickly regretted) comment .. I'm not reading much into it.



When I compare Ubuntu/Mint .. I'm not too much concentrating on the DE, which Ubuntu (so far) have made easy to change.
I'm more on about the work done behind the scenes to make Debian "work" out of the box for people more "normal" than you or I ;)
(Mint do little in this regard other than use what Ubuntu did .. and as I said, they don't even specialise, they're after the same user group .. so I can't tell the difference)

Mint, Ubuntu .. Ubuntu, Mint .. they're the same thing.

LMDE, Debian .. Debian, LMDE .. they're the same thing

Lubuntu, Lxle, LinuxLite, etc.....

at least Peppermint tries to specialise and go after a different (niche ?) user group, even if differences are pretty superficial.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 04:06:27 pm by Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec) »
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Offline chemicalfan

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Re: Bodhi creator and lead developer standing down - is this the end of Bodhi ?
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2014, 04:08:35 pm »
Mint, Ubuntu .. Ubuntu, Mint .. they're the same thing.

LMDE, Debian .. Debian, LMDE .. blah, blah, blah...

Isn't that true of pretty much all deriative distros though?

With the exception of stuff like Knoppix, most distros based on others are very similar to the original, and interchangable to a degree (except Unity - I don't think anyone has managed to run Unity outside of Ubuntu)

Edit: Ninja edit - I agree about the different target users, but it just becomes Lubuntu - Peppermint then.

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Re: Bodhi creator and lead developer standing down - is this the end of Bodhi ?
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2014, 04:08:35 pm »

Offline Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec)

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Re: Bodhi creator and lead developer standing down - is this the end of Bodhi ?
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2014, 04:11:52 pm »
No .. see the bit I added at the very end of that posting ;)
Edit: double ninja edit .. Oh, you did :)

I'm not saying Mint,etc. shouldn't exist, choice and diversity are good things (with the possible exception of Ashley Banjo) .. I'm just saying  .. oh hell, I don't know what I'm saying  ???

[EDIT]

I didn't realise there were people about that would *try* to run Unity outside Ubuntu .. "WTF ?" is all that springs to mind  :o

[EDIT 2 or is that 3]

I'll bet it'd be easy to run Unity in Mint .. LOL :P
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 04:27:10 pm by Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec) »
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