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Offline GG

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Advice on setting up
« on: March 19, 2011, 12:00:02 am »
Hi,

I'm sick of windows, but can't afford Mac (and prefer Linux anyway). So, I'm considering Ubuntu.
I would like advice on the following things:
How should I set up Ubuntu?
How can I keep Windows in case I don't like Linux?
How best can I keep the ability to read or perhaps standard windows file types (doc, ppt, xls, docx, pptx, xlsx)?
Which apps should I load onto my Linux and is there a package with all the linux essentials?
Is Linux a good idea for me (I'm not big into kernel editting and this would be a personal desktop, but I like the software in general)?

Offline Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec)

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Re: Advice on setting up
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2011, 12:18:10 am »
OK, can I suggest Ubuntu... it will come with a load of pre-installed applicatiions such as OpenOffice, which will be able to read and write the M$ office doc types you mentioned (doc, ppt, xls, docx, pptx, xlsx), a web browser (Firefox), an email client, a photo manager, media players, CD/DVD burning app, messenger client, etc.

Another option would be Linux Mint 10, which is based on Ubuntu.. if you decide to go for Mint, can I suggest you get the "Main" edition (with the GNOME desktop).
Some people find Mint slightly easier at first,as it comes with mp3 and flash support already included, these have to be post-installed in Ubuntu (very easy to do though), but I *now* prefer Ubuntu... it's a personal taste thing though, they are very nearly the same thing.

As a matter of fact it will come with MOST of the software you will need already installed, and there's a LOT more you can easily install from within the Ubuntu Software Centre or Synaptic package managers.

A package manager is an application that lists all the software available in the Ubuntu repositories, you just choose what you want, and it will download and install it for you... no searching online, no viruses or malware, and all software that is installed this way will be kept up to date automatically.

The Package manager / Repository system of installing software is one of Linux's major strengths... it is also the thing most people overlook when coming from the Windows world... old habits die hard, and most people when they first try Linux still think they need to search for their software online, download it, then manually install it.

Ubuntu
http://www.ubuntu.com/

OpenOffice (which will already be installed in Ubuntu 10.10)
http://www.openoffice.org/

By far the easiest way for you to "test drive" Linux and keep Windows, would be to use the WUBI installer that comes with an Ubuntu LiveCD... Download an Ubuntu LiveCD ISO image from HERE, burn it to a CD, then just insert the CD in a PC that is already running Windows, the WUBI installer will autostart, and install Ubuntu into a folder "INSIDE" Windows... this way you can see if you like it, and if not, you can uninstall it from withing the "Add/Remove Programs" Windows control panel applet.

Actually you don't even have to burn it to CD if you don't want to, you can just download the WUBI Windows installer application, run it in Windows, and it will download the ISO image and then install it for you.... see here:
http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/get-ubuntu/windows-installer
and for more info on WUBI, see here:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WubiGuide
Be Aware - Be sure to read the Warning on the above link, I'm *fairly* sure it has been fixed now, but it would be advisable to lock the GRUB bootloader version so it doesn't get updated anyway... "just in case"... if you need/want instructions on how to do this, just ask, it's an easy thing to do and could save you some grief in the future.
(if you decide on Mint, you WILL have to burn a CD, they don't do the app that downloads it for you, but it will still install the same way if you insert the CD in a running Windows PC... it would also be a good idea to lock the GRUB version in Mint too).

If you decide you DO like it, you can continue to run it that way, or go for a "proper" installation.
(either keeping or discarding Windows... the choice is your)

a WUBI installation, or a "proper" dual-boot installation will ask you at bootup whether you wish to boot into Ubuntu or Windows.

Or (if your PC can boot from USB)you could run it from a bootable USB stick (LiveUSB)
http://linuxforums.org.uk/general-help-advice/help-me-get-started/msg37362/#msg37362
It won't run as quickly this way, but has the benefit of being "portable", ie. you can boot it from any PC that can boot from a USB stick.

More info on what LiveCD's and LiveUSB's are, here:
LiveCD
http://linux.co.uk/index.php/pages/livecd/

LiveUSB
http://linux.co.uk/index.php/pages/usb-key/

A list of Linux alternatives to popular Windows software, here:
http://linux.co.uk/2010/06/linux-alternatives-to-windows-software/
99% of which will either already be installed, or will be available fro the package managers, along with a LOT more.
(at present there are 32,402 packages available in my package manager)

How was that for a lengthy read ;)

If you have any other questions, just ask :)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 01:31:48 am by Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec) »
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Offline GG

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Re: Advice on setting up
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2011, 03:08:51 pm »
OK, I think I'll go for a dual boot of Ubuntu and Windows - how should I go about setting that up?

Offline Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec)

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Re: Advice on setting up
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2011, 05:02:05 pm »
Did you read the above posting ?

Using WUBI to install Ubuntu would be your safest and easiest bet, as it's not going to be altering your partition table... See what I said about using WUBI to install Ubuntu above.

Or if you are intent on a "proper" Ubuntu installation, which will entail resizing your Windows partition...
Go here:
http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/get-ubuntu/download
Click on the "Start download" button.

Whilst you are on that page, click on the 3 "Show me how" buttons.

Be Aware - ANY operation that edits the partition table carries a small risk of corrupting your partitions, including your Windows one, so back up anything you cannot afford to loose first).

The choice is yours...
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 06:17:00 pm by Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec) »
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Offline GG

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Re: Advice on setting up
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2011, 08:04:23 pm »
Did you read the above posting ?

Yes, but it would be reassuring to have advice on the details...

Using WUBI to install Ubuntu would be your safest and easiest bet, as it's not going to be altering your partition table... See what I said about using WUBI to install Ubuntu above.

As I said, I'd like to properly install Ubuntu (the duel boot option) as I have been led to believe that because WUBI keeps Windows running it slows the computer down.

Or if you are intent on a "proper" Ubuntu installation, which will entail resizing your Windows partition...

Am I to understand that duel boot would mean that neither OS operates at full capacity? I thought that as only one runs at a time, whichever OS is running has full control...

Go here:
http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/get-ubuntu/download
Click on the "Start download" button.

Whilst you are on that page, click on the 3 "Show me how" buttons.

Will I be asked to select from settings (e.g. Kubuntu/Xubuntu/Ubuntu or Memory settings)? as this is what WUBI prompted me for.
If so, what do you recommend?

Be Aware - ANY operation that edits the partition table carries a small risk of corrupting your partitions, including your Windows one, so back up anything you cannot afford to loose first).

The choice is yours...

I thought that the storage of my files was completely independent of OS... what is at risk exactly? All documents and applications or just those in the Windows area?

Thanks in advance for all your help.


Offline Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec)

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Re: Advice on setting up
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2011, 08:51:09 pm »
Quote
I have been led to believe that because WUBI keeps Windows running it slows the computer down.


This is NOT true... WUBI installs Ubuntu to a "Virtual" drive (on your Windows partition)... the GRUB bootloader then EITHER boots the virtual drive OR Windows... Windows is NOT running AT ALL if you boot to Ubuntu... though Ubuntu *may* run "slightly" slower due to it being in a "Virtual" drive".

Quote
Quote from: Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec) on Yesterday at 05:02:05 pm
Or if you are intent on a "proper" Ubuntu installation, which will entail resizing your Windows partition...
=====
Am I to understand that duel boot would mean that neither OS operates at full capacity? I thought that as only one runs at a time, whichever OS is running has full control


You misunderstood what I meant... I meant you will have to resize the Windows partition, so effectively Windows will have less room available to it on the hard drive (Linux will have the full drive capacity because it can read/write to the Windows partition too)... other than that you are correct, you boot one or the other and whichever you boot will have FULL control of the systems resources.

Quote
Will I be asked to select from settings (e.g. Kubuntu/Xubuntu/Ubuntu or Memory settings)? as this is what WUBI prompted me for.
If so, what do you recommend?


No, from that link you will only be offered Ubuntu 10.10 (or 10.04 LTS if you change the option)... if you decide on a WUBI install, select Ubuntu 10.10 32bit

Quote
I thought that the storage of my files was completely independent of OS... what is at risk exactly? All documents and applications or just those in the Windows area?


Unless specifically set up that way (and most Windows systems aren't), your user data and the rest of the system will all reside on the same partition... but even if they ARE on different partitions, when resizing partitions you are manipulating the "partition table"... if the partition table becomes corrupted, the data will still be there on the drive but you will not be able to access it, and would need some kind of data recovery tool to get at it, if it was recoverable at all.

The chances of the partition table becoming corrupted whilst resizing the partitions for a "proper" installation are small, but I thought it best to make you aware of them.... specially if you don't have a Windows CD.

A WUBI installation does NOT change the partitioning scheme AT ALL, it does replace the Windows bootloader, so again there is a small chance that if that went wrong you wouldn't be able to boot your PC, but that would be MUCH easier to fix.
(particularly if you have a Linux LiveCD already burned)

This is NOT a Linux issue, ANY partition operation runs a small risk of corruption.

Now you're aware of the risks, the choice is yours.

Personally I'd agree with you and do a "proper" install, but I have no idea of your technical abilities if anything goes wrong, or if you cannot afford for things to go wrong, (ie. have important data, and or don't have a Windows disk to reinstall with if things do go wrong), so I thought it prudent to point out the small but present risks.



First thing to do... go to that link:
http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/get-ubuntu/download
and click on the "Start download" button... this will download an Ubuntu 10.10 32bit ISO image (only get the 64bit version if you are SURE you have a 64bit CPU, if unsure stick with the default settings and get the 32bit version... the 32bit version will run on 32bit and 64bit CPU's the 64bit will ONLY run on 64bit CPU's... the ONLY real benefit of the 64bit version is it allows you to run more than 4GB of RAM as long as you have a 64bit CPU)... when it is downloaded, burn it to a CDROM.

THEN you can make up your mind whether to do a WUBI or "proper" installation.

If you want to do a WUBI installation -
Boot to your Windows desktop... once there, insert the Ubuntu LiveCD you just made into your CD/DVD drive... WUBI will autostart and should not need to download anything, because it gets it from the CD.

If you want to do a "proper" Ubuntu installation -
My advice would be to -
1) Click on the "Show me how" buttons on the Ubuntu website and make sure you understand them

2) In Windows, run a complete defrag of your hard drive.

3) Reboot the PC from the Ubuntu LiveCD

4) Follow the instructions you read in the "Show me how" links.

If you have any further questions, fell free to ask. :)

in either case you will need to decide how much room you want to put aside for Ubuntu... this will depend on things like, how big your hard drive is and how much free space is left.



Another option that doesn't require partition changes (so your Widows drive is safe), yet would still allow a "proper" installation would be to get a second hard drive and install Ubuntu "natively" onto that.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 10:03:19 pm by Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec) »
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Offline GG

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Re: Advice on setting up
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2011, 04:35:23 pm »

This is NOT true... WUBI installs Ubuntu to a "Virtual" drive (on your Windows partition)... the GRUB bootloader then EITHER boots the virtual drive OR Windows... Windows is NOT running AT ALL if you boot to Ubuntu... though Ubuntu *may* run "slightly" slower due to it being in a "Virtual" drive".

and:
Quote
A WUBI installation does NOT change the partitioning scheme AT ALL, it does replace the Windows bootloader, so again there is a small chance that if that went wrong you wouldn't be able to boot your PC, but that would be MUCH easier to fix.
If this is the case, then what advantage does proper installation have over WUBI except for possibly being slightly slower?

Quote
your user data and the rest of the system will all reside on the same partition... but even if they ARE on different partitions, when resizing partitions you are manipulating the "partition table"... if the partition table becomes corrupted, the data will still be there on the drive but you will not be able to access it, and would need some kind of data recovery tool to get at it, if it was recoverable at all.
I will be backing up all of my files beforehand anyway - but if the partition table becomes corrupted will I lose all the disk space my files are occupying?

Quote
The chances of the partition table becoming corrupted whilst resizing the partitions for a "proper" installation are small, but I thought it best to make you aware of them.... specially if you don't have a Windows CD.
and:
Quote
Now you're aware of the risks, the choice is yours.

Personally I'd agree with you and do a "proper" install, but I have no idea of your technical abilities if anything goes wrong, or if you cannot afford for things to go wrong, (ie. have important data, and or don't have a Windows disk to reinstall with if things do go wrong), so I thought it prudent to point out the small but present risks.
My technical abilities are low, but if things go wrong is it not possible to wipe the computer, install Linux from the LiveCD and recover my files from the backup drive I'm using? Although I would then be unable to switch back to Windows, I'm sure in a worst case scenario I'd make do with Linux even if I didn't like it that much (and I'm basically positive that I prefer Linux).

Quote
in either case you will need to decide how much room you want to put aside for Ubuntu... this will depend on things like, how big your hard drive is and how much free space is left.

How will this effect Ubuntu when it runs? Can some of this memory go into the D: Drive? What are the recommendations?

Quote
Another option that doesn't require partition changes (so your Widows drive is safe), yet would still allow a "proper" installation would be to get a second hard drive and install Ubuntu "natively" onto that.

That's worth considering...

Thankyou in advance for your ongoing patience  - I think I'm almost there now.

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Re: Advice on setting up
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2011, 05:23:51 pm »
Quote
If this is the case, then what advantage does proper installation have over WUBI except for possibly being slightly slower?

The slight speed advantage, and the fact that a Linux native partition would be (more) immune from tampering by windows malware... ie. it IS *possible* that windows malware could corrupt the WUBI virtual drive, though I've never heard of this happening... Windows can't even "see" a Linux native partition (unless 3rd party software is installed).

It must be said that Windows malware is highly unlikey to be able to *access* the WUBI virtual drives *contents* (the virtual drive contains a Linux native filesystem), but there is a general consensus that it *could* corrupt the Virtual drive itself as it is stored on a Windows filesystem... though as pointed out I've never heard of this happening, it IS (unlikely but) possible that at some point in the future some idiot may write some Windows malware that specifically targets Windows ability to read the WUBI virtual drive, if you see my point.

Think of the Virtual drive as a sealed box that Windows malware can "see" but can't get inside... the *contents* are safe, but the *box* itself could still be tampered with (rendering it unopenable).

Quote
but if the partition table becomes corrupted will I lose all the disk space my files are occupying?

No... it would require the use of some 3rd party software to recover any files you needed (if that worked at all), then for you to format the drive... ie. erase it completely, which would fix the partition table, but you would have to re-install Windows and Ubuntu again from scratch.

Quote
My technical abilities are low, but if things go wrong is it not possible to wipe the computer, install Linux from the LiveCD and recover my files from the backup drive I'm using? Although I would then be unable to switch back to Windows, I'm sure in a worst case scenario I'd make do with Linux even if I didn't like it that much (and I'm basically positive that I prefer Linux).

Yes... See above.

Quote
How will this effect Ubuntu when it runs? Can some of this memory go into the D: Drive? What are the recommendation s?

Very little, Ubuntu will be quite happy in 2GB (but I'd be more tempted to give it at least 10GB)... Ubuntu WILL be able to "see" the Windows partitions so they *could* be used for storage.
The only thing I'm unsure of is how easy it would be to "change you mind" and expand the room you gave a WUBI installation... a proper installation CAN be changed later. (heh, suppose that should have gone in answer 1 ;) )

Quote
That's worth considering...

If you can afford a USB 2.0 (or 3.0 if you have USB 3.0 ports) external USB drive, this would also allow you to carry Ubuntu around with you and boot it from any PC capable of booting from USB (make sure YOUR system can boot from USB fiirt though)... unlike Windows, Ubuntu will be quite happy when booting on different hardware.... obviously it will be slightly slower that if run from an internal drive.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 04:29:05 pm by Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec) »
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Offline GG

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Re: Advice on setting up
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2011, 06:51:51 pm »
OK, I'm basically finished. One last question: when I run Linux from my CD (without installing it to the Drive) does it change the partitions table, and should I back my files up?
Again thanks for getting me to this stage, I'm feeling confident now!

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Re: Advice on setting up
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2011, 09:01:35 pm »
No, whilst running as a LiveCD it makes NO changes to your hard drive AT ALL... unless you tell it to install of course ;)

So select "Try Ubuntu" when asked rather than "Install Ubuntu", and you are 100% safe.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 09:09:01 pm by Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec) »
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Re: Advice on setting up
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2011, 05:31:33 pm »
Booting from a LiveCD will not allow you to save any system configuration changes such as installing new software, or adding drivers etc. .. because as it runs from RAM, all changes will be lost when you reboot.

If your system is capable of booting from a USB stick...

If you want to run a "Live" session AND be able to save changes, install Ububtu to a LiveUSB stick with persistence...
(again, as long as you select "Try Ubuntu" rather than "Install Ubuntu", this will make NO changes to your hard drive AT ALL)



Instructions for creating a LiveUSB (on a Windows PC)...
Download the Ubuntu LiveCD ISO image from their homepages, then follow the instructions from "Step 2" on this page:

http://www.pendrivelinux.com/put-ubuntu-10-04-on-flash-drive-using-windows/

Just make sure you set a "persistence" file during creation of the LiveUSB... see pic below


Then all you have to do is boot from the USB stick, by either setting USB as the first boot device in the BIOS, or hitting the "boot device selection key" when you switch your PC on then selecting the USB stick... usually the F10 key but varies from manufacturer to manufacturer... and when asked, select "Try Ubuntu" rather than "Install Ubuntu" .

If you want instructions for creating a LiveUSB from within Linux, just ask :)

[EDIT]
It looks like the Ubuntu LiveCD now has a (Windows) usb-creator.exe file in the root of the CDROM which I'm *guessing* will create a LiveUSB from the CD's contents.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 05:43:33 pm by Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec) »
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Offline GG

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Re: Advice on setting up
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2011, 07:18:41 pm »
When I boot with the Live CD in, I get an error message (cannot mount). Is live USB the only option or should a Live CD work?
EDIT
it reads:
BusyBox v1.15.3 (Ubuntu 1:1.15.3 - 1ubuntu5) built-in shell (ash)
Enter 'help' for a list of built in commands
(initramfs) mount:mounting /dev/loop0 on //filesystem.squashfs failed: Input/Output error
Can not mount /dev/loop0 (/cdrom/casper/filesystem.squashfs) on //filesystem.squashfs
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 07:33:48 pm by GG »

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Re: Advice on setting up
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2011, 07:44:31 pm »
Can you first check the CD burned properly, or that your CD drive isn't having problems reading the disk

Boot from your 10.10 LiveCD, and as soon as you see:


displayed in the top left of your screen... keep hitting the Space Bar until...

A screen similar to this will appear and ask you to select a language... select English and hit Enter:
(if you get to the purple Ubuntu screen with the 5 or 6 dots, you missed it and will have to try again)

Then use the arrow keys to move to "Check disc for defects" and hit enter.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 01:55:21 am by Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec) »
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Re: Advice on setting up
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2011, 08:00:21 pm »
(initramfs) mount:mounting /dev/loop0 on //filesystem.squashfs failed: Input/Output error
Can not mount /dev/loop0 (/cdrom/casper/filesystem.squashfs) on //filesystem.squashfs

The Input/Output error tells me it's highly likely to be a bad burn of the CDROM, first try checking it for defects as described above, then if any problems are found try re-burning it at a lower speed.

Some people seem to have more luck burning the ISO image onto a DVD rather than a CD
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 08:04:08 pm by Mark Greaves (PCNetSpec) »
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Re: Advice on setting up
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2011, 08:03:58 pm »
yep, when I checked for defects it when to the 'can not mount' screen but until then it was fine so I'm guessing it's a bad burn.
I will try with DVD.
EDIT
Should I tick the 'underrun protection', 'pad data tracks' etc. boxes in InfraRecorder?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 08:07:33 pm by GG »

 


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