Shuttleworth on bug #1 - perhaps we can consider that one fixed.

Bug #1 (Reported by Canonical/Ubuntu CEO Mark Shuttleworth on 20-08-2004) on is described as:-

In an interview with Muktware, Canonical/Ubuntu CEO Mark Shuttleworth says:-

Read into that what you will … :slight_smile:

Original Muktware article:

Muktware’s exclusive interview with Mark Shuttleworth here:

full IRC question and answer session here:

So what do you reckon … is bug #1 fixed, or not ?

No it’s still not fixed. Even though they’re selling computers like mad over in China, Africa, etc, AND have OEM contracts now starting to pop up, it’s not entirely fixed yet. I still think there has to be more awareness in both the USA & UK/EU.

It’s great having the awareness in China were they’re a fast growing population of over a billion people, however, I believe that both the USA & UK are still MAJOR countries in which Microsoft still dominates even though they are now losing market share pretty fast with the confusion that is Windows 8.

I wouldn’t say bug 1 is fixed just yet perhaps when we get kind of level market share wise with OS X, then mayyybe.

The bug is quite specific …

Bug Description

Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace

I see little change in the “new desktop PC marketplace” … they still all come with Windows pre-installed ::slight_smile:

I was in PC-World the other day, and I saw a bunch of Dell computers with Ubuntu on them. To say I was startled is an understatement. I was happy at the same time though.

The guy looked at me, and asked have you tried Ubuntu before? I looked him back with my “I’m a Linux user, what do you think” face.

He then casually walked over, with his clearly scripted talk about Ubuntu, I told him to shut up, I already run Ubuntu at home. XD

He then casually walked over, with his clearly scripted talk about Ubuntu, I told him to shut up, I already run Ubuntu at home. XD

Now, that is a sure way of putting the salesman off talking to unsuspecting customers about the virtues of Ubuntu (Linux) :smiley:

That is likely to continue for a loong time, according to this study:

Well, if that’s Mark’s definition of a “bug”, it explains Sooooo much ! … :wink:

And that would be a “no”.

As to the “why”, Ubuntu could do it, but there’s the small matter of stability and not repeatedly fixing stuff that’s NOT BROKEN!

If you happen to be an Ubuntu Engineer, next time you think “I could make this ‘better’”, I would request you consider;
a. “better” can be subjective
b. if it ain’t broke, there’s an awful lot on launchpad that is
c. your “enhancement” could well break stuff

There is one school of thought that says; “hey, they’re doing all this for free, stop knocking it!” and there’s another that says “they have the market share and funding, so many people will refrain from trying to compete”. So, “my” opinion of 11.xx is that it was less stable than 10.xx , that’s 12 months of people experimenting with “Linux” and potentially coming away disappointed. Or, more to the point, upgrading from 10.xx to 11.xx, deciding it just doesn’t work any more and switching to something else.

Hey … can we please differentiate between the “Mark”(s) in this topic :wink:

But I’d agree that it does explain a lot.

To add to MP’s post, if you take a look at how 10.xx was, it’s far more stable than compared to that latest LTS release which was all focused on “stability”. Clearly it isn’t if somehow unexpectedly X-org / udev happens to BREAK the mouse and keyboard.

Yes Unity IS pretty, but it’s FAR TOO HEAVY! If Unity is to be aimed at tablets and phones, I would love to see how they’re going to reduce that weight.

IMO, Gnome-shell is a tiny bit lighter, and because my machine is getting older, it’s needing lighter and lighter DE’s.

When people 2 years ago said, “Ah, but Linux is fast! Customizable, and so much better than Windows” the only part really valid is the “so much better than Windows” part.

Ubuntu has turned into a fat lady, which isn’t so hot anymore. It’s like Britney Spears with no hair…

Granted Gnome-shell IS VERY customizable, just take a look at Cinnamon (although please don’t get me going about it. The Mint developers must be going mad!)

Having a DE scripted by CSS/Java is cool, effective for tablets, but JAVA is a HORRIBLE language, and boasts so many security issues IMO.

Really what your left with is:

a) You stick will good ol’ Lucid Lynx, don’t recieve the latest software because 10.04 doesn’t support GTK3 but have a VERY fast, VERY responsive, VERY customizable desktop


b) You go with one of the newer distro, which will ultimately BREAK something. Have slower boot up times, slower shutdown times, slower response times, somewhat customizable, and have the latest software.

Effectively what you have is, you need to pick between the lady who is very hot, and good in bed but makes a horrible sandwich, or the lady who is slighter more mature and not as sexy, however makes an awesome sandwich but is crap in bed.

Or use Gentoo and build your very own design of sex godess that can make a great sandwich, brew you a beer, and light you a cigarette whist still in bed … but who’ll take a lot of building and maintenance.


Hmm … after careful consideration, maybe I shouldn’t have picked that up and run with it ::slight_smile:

LOL! Gentoo you say? I say nay!

I would totally disagree with you on this one. For the last few days I have been test driving LMDE with Cinnamon and I rather like it.
It works very well on my aging desktop (built circa 2004). The only thing what is bugging me (already reported and accepted bug)
is that you cannot re-size the panel if it is at the bottom, but hey I can live with that.
If Ubuntu would come with Cinnamon as an alternate desktop then I might consider using it,
but then Mint will be doing the same so there would be no point.

I think I’m going to try an UPGRADE to 12.04 … I’ve always done fresh installs before, so wish me luck :slight_smile:

Then I’m going to give (the supposedly much improved) UNITY another go … I know I said I wouldn’t, but I can be a fickle old sod sometimes :wink:

Good luck with your upgrade :slight_smile: Hope it all goes well.

I'm going to give (the supposedly much improved) UNITY another go
It looks like there might be a official Gnome Flavor of Ubuntu in the planning. (Even Canonical can see that not all is well with Unity)

Oddly enough, I’m starting to re-evaluate Unity … with their “Ubuntu on Android” idea I kinda see their direction.

Lets say this Ubuntu on Android thing takes off on the next generation of phones … the next step would be to push towards “well now you’re used to using it, why not have it on your home/business desktop for a unified interface/application base”

Also consider the smartphone manufacturers seem to be queuing up to take a look at Ubuntu on Android … probably because it won’t (and Ubuntu have admitted this) be released as an “App”, but will require you to buy a new phone/device (and peripherals, dock station etc) … that suits the phone/device manufacturers, Ubunut get their OS “out to the masses”, and the carriers hopefully benefit from more data being moved … everyone wins, and AFAIK it’s free to the manufacturers (I could be wrong here ?), if so why would they NOT include it in their next gen devices.

I’m starting to think maybe I didn’t give them enough credit … Unity is probably the ONLY DE/UI out there that seems equally at home on touch and non-touch screens.

As a “desktop” UI, it’s not really that different … just panel on the left … but for touch devices, that works. I think most peoples objections revolved around the lack of customisability, and it’s speed … both of which (so I’m told) have improved in 12.04.
Maybe they released it too early … but then again, if Gnome were going to be in the same boat with Gnome3 … what better time to release, at least it wouldn’t look so bad “by comparison”.

Here’s the thing (and I was guilty of it too), we all bitched about the convergence of desktop and device UI’s, and at first it was (rightly) seen as a dumbing down of the “desktop” UI, but Unity isn’t really (and be serious) that different, and a lot of the things we bitched about are (or appear to be) being slowly addressed … tweakability with MyUnity, lack of Menus’ to a certain extent HUD, speed improvements, etc.

So what would be better, 2 separate DE/UI paradigms or one that spans both devices and desktops (as long as it works) ? … now ask yourself which DE (currently) would seem the best fit.

OS X and iOS are still 2 totally different DE/UI’s

Win8 is just a mess … they’ve tried to layer one onto the other.

Then there’s Unity, which seems at home on both … and it’s improving on both. … I suppose Gnome3 could also fit the bill, but then they don’t seem to be working closely with device manufacturers to try get it out there.

At first I saw it as a compromise … now I’m beginning to think maybe I jumped the gun … maybe, just maybe, it was visionary.

There’s still a way to go and they may mess it up, but I’m now wondering if at least they WERE going in the right direction … so I’m going to give it another chance.

Watch this space … where my next posting will probably say “Argh, no, Unity sucks” … but then I’ve already admitted I can be a fickle old sod :slight_smile:

But just maybe this is an idea that COULD solve bug #1 … who knows.

Wow… You have convinced yourselves to accept the INEVITABLE :o
I have a different out look on this one. Horses for courses.
You do different things with phone/tablets compared to desktops/laptops
The latter is for creating and not necessary for consuming content.

There is no need to FORCE the desktop users to a tablet/phone interface.

So what would be better, 2 separate DE/UI paradigms or one that spans both devices and desktops (as long as it works) ? .. now ask yourself which DE (currently) would seem the best fit.
KDE shows that it can be done with its plasma netbook interface: With a few clicks you can switch between them.

It is also suitable for the tablets:

I think maybe you misunderstood what I was saying (or I didn’t phrase it well) … I’m not saying you HAVE to have the same DE on devices as workstations … I’m just saying that Unity may have had a “purpose” beyond change for the sake of change, and “why not” if it can be made to work :slight_smile:

If Ubuntu are willing (and able) to address the issues Unity brought up on the workstation … why not give it a chance.

Both Gnome3 currently, and KDE4 went through the same transitionary stage, where given time to improve, they did/are.

It seems I was quite willing to give Gnome3 time to “mature”, but wasn’t extending that to Unity … which may have been a mistake on my part :-[

And I disagree … KDE isn’'t an ideal situation on devices (though I have to admit here too, some of this may be personal bias)… it’s sounds a lot like Win8 if you have to change UI, even if it is just a few clicks. The “ideal” situation would be a DE/UI that fits both … now I don’t know for sure this is possible, but Unity appears as close as anything else at the moment (indeed maybe closer), without loosing anything from either, in fact possible enhancing the “device” UI, without harming the workstation UI much beyond some slight limitations that appear to be being slowly addressed.

There is no need to FORCE the desktop users to a tablet/phone interface.

Where are Ubuntu doing this … there is nothing stopping you from installing another DE ? … not to mention that I don’t (and never have) consider Unity a tablet/phone UI in the same vein as iOS/Android … in fact I consider it a tablet “friendly” workstation UI.

All I’m saying is “with hindsight”, I can (maybe) see what Ubuntu’s plan may have been … and IF what I’ve read about the improvements to the UI (from the workstation perspective) are correct, and that they continue to work in that direction (as Gnome are having to do) … I’m willing to give it another go.

There’s a lot to be said for hindsight … and though I wasn’t a Unity fan (and it still remains to be seen if I ever will be), at least now i (kind of) “get it”.

Wow.. You have convinced yourselves to accept the INEVITABLE :o

I’m not “convinced” of anything yet, least of all that this “plan” of their’s can or will work … but hindsight may be giving me a new perspective … and I could be totally wrong … more an admission that I may have been “fighting” the Unity “idea” for the wrong reasons.

I’ve not suddenly become a Unity fan, nor am I bowing to the “inevitable” … I’m saying I can no longer just DISMISS Unity, and just maybe they are on to something … I know I put a LOT of “maybes” in there … but that’s precisely because I don’t “know” yet :wink:

I also have to admit this apparent U-turn may be me just “wanting” Ubuntu on Android to create more Linux awareness, and therefore people installing it on their workstations … then they’ll be free (and hopefully aware enough) to choose a completely different LINUX DE if they so choose :slight_smile:

Maybe it wasn’t Ubuntu changing for the sake of change after all… maybe it was me sticking with what I knew, for the sake of sticking … I’ll bet there were people that said “why change from a pure CLI interface, to a more restrictive GUI … that’s a bad idea”, I’d rather history not judge me as one of them, someone who didn’t give change a fair chance :o

I used to shoot Unity down for being “daft” and “pointless” and “bad for Linux” (through desktop fragmentation) … hindsight seems to be suggesting there was a plan all along, so maybe it’s not so daft and pointless … I didn’t like it when Shuttleworth said things like the launcher will stay “as is”, but they’ve relented and made it customisable, and hopefully this more “listening” approach will continue … and just maybe it will end up being GOOD thing for Linux as a whole.

OK, essay over.

The End. … I’m now taking questions :slight_smile:

IMHO, Canonical looked at OSX and said “oooh, shiney, we should have some of that!” - which would be the wrong premise for changing an established UI style that’s been in use for 10-15 years. It seems to be a case of, “how close to Apple can we get without any legal fallout”? without actually considering whether the OSX interface was actually worth copying.

Newsflash :: As the owner of a 27" iMac running OSX, “OSX sucks [dead rats though a straw]!” … comparatively.
[unless all you do it use Office and Chrome … you won’t of course be using Safari unless you like restarting it all the time after crashes …]

Gnome3 on the other hand seems to have been more of an “ideally, how would our desktop work?”. Unfortunately this has led to a reliance on new hardware, lots of memory, and a long buggy development cycle - which is still in progress. I’m using Gnome3, but would revert to Gnome2 in a heartbeat if I thought the Gnome guys would continue to support it.

What would be really nice is if the chaps looking at UI design actually thought about the average [business] user for a change, rather than what they want or what would look cool. Things to consider;

a. Will our nice new UI run as a thin client using “no machine” ?
b. Will our nice new UI run on an older or cheap machine with no hardware acceleration ?
c. What about thin client hardware and efficiency over ethernet?
d. Will the user need to take out a mortgage to add sufficient memory to their system to make the UI fly?
e. Are we going to play nice with people with more than one monitor?
f. Will all those flying windows and special effects actually be of benefit to anyone, or are we just showing off and introducing lots of new area where bugs can grow?

  • these (IMHO) are all issues with both Gnome3 and Unity.
  • Oh, and my personal gripe, when the f*** am I going to be able to get a working “rdesktop” connection again?

Common questions I’m now asked? (to which I don’t have good answers);

a. How the f*** to I support Gnome3 systems using nomachine?
b. How the f*** do I get rid of that bar down the side of my screen and get my menus back?
c. Where the f*** is my screen switcher now?
d. Where the f*** is the applet which shows me which applications are running?
e. How the f*** do I add stuff to the bar at the top of the screen?
f. Where the f*** has my bottom panel gone?
g. How the f*** do I create new panels?

… I don’t know anyone who likes this new crap! Everyone has at least one complaint!
… It’s a bit like the latest budget, did they not do any research before dumping this crap on us!!!

$0.02 from guinea pig # 312453.

Granted, Unity/Gnome3 probably isn’t fully equal to Gnome 2 in a production environment yet … or even necessarily the home, but the dropping of Gnome 2x wasn’t only Ubuntu’s choice … Gnome decided Gnome 2 is dead.

I’d agree that things seem to be released without much thought about what’s been broken, and with little thought for users … but I put this down as much to the 6 monthly release cycle and the fact that at some point, they have to take the plunge or third party devs will never get onboard, and it’s easier to throw your resources into improving the latest DE if/when it’s the only one you’re concentrating on.

I seriously doubt if Gnome2 was perfect when it came out, but was improved greatly (and gradually) by third party plugins, tweaks, etc.

All I’m saying is that Unity seems to have some kind of “plan” behind it … yes it was released too early, yes it’s still not ready … but unlike Shuttleworths early comments seemed to suggest, there is some thought now going into tweaks to the UI, and hopefully this will continue.

Was standing still at Gnome2 really the answer ? … sure it would have made life “easier” in the short term, but it may also have ended up with the Linux desktop being viewed as old and irrelevant.

Development isn’t standing still … I’m still convinced Gnome3 (and now hopefully Unity too) will become everything Gnome2 was and more … but yeh, a little painful whilst in the “maturing” stage.

What I wrote in my last two postings was not supposed to be a comment on whether the move away from gnome 2 was wise … or whether Gnome3/Unity are ready as a replacement … just that if nobody gives them a chance, they never will be … and I kinda get were Canonical/Ubuntu were/are headed, and that doesn’t HAVE TO mean that Ubuntu can’t work in a production environment AS WELL as on devices.

Sure there’s some way to go yet, but given time and development, I have to wonder whether in 10 years we’ll all be bitching about the change to Gnome4 or ReUnity, saying “why change the old versions were great”.

You cant please all the people, all of … blah, blah …

Seems to me, most peoples objections really boil down to … too much, too soon … not the idea of change itself … kinda the same argument levelled at M$ Vista, which developeded into Win7, their most popular (and arguably best) OS to date :o

Gnome decided Gnome 2 is dead.
Absolutely, however, I don't see Gnome 2 not being developed any more as being a reason to switch (immediately) to Unity .. [?]
but I put this down as much to the 6 monthly release cycle
Absolutely, a six monthly release cycle being one of the worst decisions they've made. In almost every release, not only have they put out stuff that hasn't been tested, they've put out stuff that they've KNOWN was broken, sometimes badly broken. If they were selling Ubuntu, IMHO they would've or should've been sued out of existence by now (!)
I seriously doubt if Gnome2 was perfect when it came out
Absolutely! It took them a long long time .. and as soon as they got it stable and working well, what happens? - which brings be back to "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!".

Rehat learnt this many years ago, have two versions, one that works, and one tekkie’s can play with. Ubuntu still think they can do this off of one version, they’re either going to have to wake up quickly or something is going to turn around and bite them on the arse. You can’t make out you’re supplying a production quality product (even for free!) , take no responsibility for quality control, and KEEP getting away with it. A day will come …

Was standing still at Gnome2 really the answer?

No, you can always improve, however you can always do it without doing it at the expense of loyal users … not something that appears to have occurred to the chaps at Canonical. Whereas I’m quite happy to play with new stuff, people I support would rather forego features in favour of stability.

With regards to Unity, there are obviously talented programmers working on it, but as the famous quote goes;
“You can put lipstick on a pig, but at the end of the day, it’s still a pig …”

Anyway, what does our mighty leader have to say on the matter; :wink: